In Folgenden ein meiner Ansicht nach sehr interessanter Dialog/Thread zwischen
Autoren von TheStreet.com ("Columnist Conversation"). Zwei geraten darin in einen Streit, der auch viele hier im Forum interessieren dürfte.
Der eine,
Barry Ritholtz, ist Verfasser des aufschlussreichen Postings Nr. 2 dieses Threads (mit ein Grund dafür, warum ich diesen Thread eröffnet habe). Ritholtz ist kein Perma-Bär, aber seit einem Jahr skeptisch. Dadurch hat er aber auch einen Teil der Index-Anstiege seitdem verpasst.
Der zweite,
Cody Williard, leitet einen Hedgefond, der auf Tech- und Telekomwerte spezialisiert ist. Er ist ein sehr gewitzter und teils analytisch brillianter Bulle, der auf der Long-Seite sehr erfolgreich ist - bzw. war: Denn vor drei Wochen,
wenige Tage vor dem jüngsten Crash/Abverkauf, ist Williard aufgrund eines Bauchgefühls - oder Intuition - mit seinem Hedgefond
fast komplett aus Aktien ausgestiegen - bis auf eine Position in Microsoft, die er aus fundamentalen Gründen behalten hat.
Beide sind also bärisch, der eine seit einem Jahr, der andere erst seit drei Wochen. Williard erwägt jedoch, demnächst wieder Aktien zu kaufen, während Ritholtz nach wie vor das Doomsday-Szenario (Crash im Herbst) für möglich hält.
Dieser Streit dürfte auch für viele hier im Forum interessant sein, denn wir befinden uns in der gleichen gedanklichen Zwickmühle: Kaufen oder Verkaufen? Ist die jüngste Erholung nur eine technische Gegenreaktion im vor drei Wochen begonnenen Downtrend (Ritholtz' "Bären-Szenario"). Oder ist es eine der vielen 5-%-Korrekturen, ohne die auch der beste Bullenmarkt auf Dauer nicht stabil steigen kann (Williard).
In dem Thread, erschienen gestern (Freitag, d. 2.6.06), gibt es auch noch andere Kommentare zu anderen Topics, die ich aber der Übersichtlichkeit halber weggelassen habe. Kommentare in eckigen Klammern und fette Hervorhebungen sind von mir.
Columnist Conversation [Freitag, 2. Juni 2006]
NFP Day -- Abandoning the Over? [hier geht es offenbar um eine Analogie zum football]
Barry Ritholtz
6/2/06 7:33 AM EDT
[erschienen VOR den schwachen Job-Zahlen: Um 8:30 h (EST) wurden nur 75.000 statt der erwarteten 170.000 neuen Stellen (ex-agrar) gemeldet]
In April, I deviated from the longstanding "under" gamble and took the "over." It was a winning bet.
Last month revealed that April's release (for March jobs data) was a mere exception to the rule. All the Katrina relocatees were finally caught up with by BLS. Like GDP, they reflected a surge, which was really a push forward from Q4 2005.
The overall trend remains soft. While I have no particular feel for this month, the Bloomberg consensus for 170,000 (Reuters survey is for 175,000) shows that perhaps the Dismal Scientists have finally figured out that job creation is not what it is typically at this phase of a recovery. (Look for a big New York Times story on this subject Sunday).
I'm tempted to take neither the Over or the Under -- perhaps they (collectively) got it "right" this month ... (And by right, I mean plus or minus 10,000).
Position: None
Handicapping Market's Reaction to NFP
Richard Suttmeier
6/2/06 7:48 AM EDT
CNBC shows consensus of 180,000 for the nonfarm payrolls report. Two street economists I follow show 150,000 and 125,000, so I have to take under.
Handicapping Yields: Look for weakness to hold monthly support at 5.197 on the two-year. If the 10-year fails to hold its monthly pivot at 5.131, the two-year should test 5.197, if not today, then next week. Resistance on a decline in yields is my monthly resistance at 5.126 on the 30-year.
Handicapping the Dow: Today's support is 11,215. This month's resistance is 11,350, but a close today below 11,267 shifts the weekly chart profile to negative indicating risk to quarterly support at 10,883.
Handicapping the Nasdaq: Today's support is 2182. This month's resistance is 2275, and a close today below 2270 keeps the weekly chart profile negative.
Position: None
Few New Jobs
Steven Smith
6/2/06 8:33 AM EDT
Nonfarm payrolls added only 75,000 new jobs. That is way below forecasts of 180,000 new jobs.
The unemployment rate came in at 4.6%. [erwartet war: 4,7 %. Schwache Zahl der neuen Jobs "passt nicht" zum Rückgang der Arbeitslosigkeit]
Hourly earnings rose 3.6%.
Stocks and bonds are rallying sharply.
Position: None
Job Growth -- Past and Present
Cody Willard
6/2/06 8:52 AM EDT
Surely, Barry, you're not seriously trying to rekindle your argument about "job creation is not what it is typically at this phase of a recovery."
That statement has been a cornerstone of your bearish rants for the last couple of years. Yes, I know you've been a "trading bull" and whatnot, and rightly so, but this economic argument of yours has been, in my view at least, wrong for the last few years and now that job creation is finally starting to slow -- years after your repeated flagging of how this "recovery" (do you still call this a "recovery" by the way? I'd call what we just went through a boom that might still be heating up ... but I digress) somehow wasn't measuring up to whatever statistically insignificant metrics you've measured in past "recoveries." It is what it is, and there have been millions of jobs created and the economy has been in a huge boom.
We've argued this point about job creation two years ago, last year and here. And now this year here in this post.
On a similar note, I can't wait to have you as my first Wall Street guest in my new offices today! Somehow I expect this topic will come up.
Position: None
Economic Data
Robert Marcin
6/2/06 9:28 AM EDT
The numbers sure look like a material slowdown to me. Something I had tried to warn the Fed about for some time. Sloppy car sales, declining home sales and slowing retail purchases suggest that too much growth is not our problem.
And the Fed is still hiking interest rates into a topping economy. With sincere apologies to Brittany, "Ooops, they did it again!"
Position: Short Moskow's 1% inflation target
Early View -- Futures Move Higher After Jobs Numbers
Christopher Edmonds
6/2/06 9:37 AM EDT
Good morning. Futures are nicely higher after a lower-than-expected jobs number keeps inflation fears in check. S&P futures are up 6.70, Dow futures are up 48 and Nasdaq futures are higher by 14 points.
Oil is higher on the back of two items: A major refinery fire at Valero (VLO:NYSE) Corpus Christi, Texas, refinery took at least 70,000 bbsd of capacity offline for an indefinite time period. In addition, bandits attacked a Nigerian rig and took eight workers hostage.
While the broader market may move higher on the employment news, housing stocks are likely going to feel the pinch of lower earnings.
Have a great day and great weekend.
Position: None
A Question for All Contributors
Robert Marcin
6/2/06 10:08 AM EDT
Anybody willing to speculate on my contention that we have a period over the next few months where bad news is bad news? Cramer?
With the average stock trading up a ton over three years, valued at 19 times earnings, in a rising inflation/interest rate environment with a slowing economy, bad news just might be greeted with selling.
Position: None
Timing and Placings
Cody Willard
6/2/06 10:20 AM EDT
Bob [= Robert], I won't venture a guess as to whether the timing is measured in weeks or months, but I for one remain concerned that the near-term risk/reward is still not exactly favorable for the bulls. With the rolling dislocations continuing -- how about that ugly intraday reversal of nearly 2% to the downside in the DAX today? -- the economic data and fundamental (especially in low-end retail) news flow getting softer and permabear buddies of mine emailing me about why it's no big deal when companies like F5 (FFIV:Nasdaq) and Juniper (JNPR:Nasdaq) are implicated in stealing from shareholders and getting longer. ...
Well, while I'm sure not turning into an outright bear, neither do I want to be much long and bullish right now. A time and place for just about everything, right?
Position: None
News and Stocks
Robert Marcin
6/2/06 10:53 AM EDT
Cody, I feel the same way. It's tough to get excited with good but deteriorating fundamentals. And, it's difficult to get too short with many stocks down and cheap.
My observation is that for the past year both good and bad news has been greeted with buying. Good news is obvious, but bad because it motivated the Fed to pause.
However, there comes a stage in the mid-cycle pause where the economy slows, rates flatten after having risen, and inflation keeps rising. Equity investors tend to develop a tad more sensitivity to "bad news" in that environment. Wondering if we have to work through that over the summer.
[Gemeint ist: Gute News sind was sie sind, während schlechte Arbeitsmarkt-News, die eigentlich ein Abschwächen der Wirtschaft signalisieren, ebenfalls als "gute News" wahrgenommen werden, weil die Fed dann die Zinsen nicht weiter die erhöhen kann, was pro-forma bullisch ist. Diese Wahrnehmung ändert sich aber, wenn sich die bad news häufen, was diesen Sommer kommen könnte.]
Position: None
Thinking Out Loud
Robert Marcin
6/2/06 11:11 AM EDT
They might still rally into the close. But should they not, today would represent the first soft economic news day that didn't generate a "one and done" rally. [gemeint: noch eine Fed-Erhöhung und dann ist Schluss]. This would not be good. We really need the bulls to take over in here.
Position: None
Bottom Fishing Review
Norm Conley
6/2/06 11:57 AM EDT
...Net-net, I'm hardly doing an end-zone dance, but I do continue to believe that the market is more likely to rally from these levels than it is to crash. If I am right in my assumption, then we will, in hindsight, view this correction as having been fortuitous.
Pullbacks are very painful for most of us. But the vast majority of pullbacks are short-term and shallow in nature. True crashes are quite rare and are definitely much less common than most are inclined to believe. Here's an interesting statistic from Ned Davis, via Bloomberg's John Dorfman: since 1900, there have been 355 corrections of at least 5% in the Dow Jones Industrial Average. In 31 of these 355 instances, the Dow's decline worsened into a bear market (i.e. a decline of 20% or more). So, while it is far from impossible that the stock market will get annihilated in the coming months, the historical odds do not favor such an outcome.
There is no such thing as a sure thing in investing, except the certainty that each pullback will be marked by dire predictions of further declines. In a minority of cases, those wise (or lucky) doomsayers turn out to be correct. In the vast majority of cases, though, boring old bulls end up being right (or lucky).
Let's state the obvious: If you are using inordinate leverage to buy stocks, or if you have money in stocks that you may need in the next several years, or if you have all of your money in a couple of individual names, then you are are being silly and reckless with your money. And you should know that Mr. Market will do his best to make you feel like a complete idiot.
On the other hand, if you are a prudent investor with a long-term view and a diversified portfolio, I believe you should be viewing this pullback in an opportunistic fashion. I am.
Position: None mentioned
Focus on Weakening Weekly Technicals
Richard Suttmeier
6/2/06 12:12 PM EDT
Strength in the Dow and Nasdaq Wednesday and Thursday alleviated the oversold conditions on the daily charts. On Fridays technicians look to the weekly charts, and they have been deteriorating since the peaks in early May.
The Dow tested its 50-day simple moving average (SMA) at 11,274 this morning. A close today below the five-week modified moving average (MMA) at 11,267 shifts the weekly chart profile to negative, which indicates risk to quarterly support at 10,883, which is just above the 200-day SMA at 10,864.
[Der Dow schloss Freitag exakt bei 11274 und ließ somit alles offen]
The Nasdaq tested its 200-day SMA at 2230 this morning, and its weekly chart profile will stay negative on a close today below its five-week MMA at 2270. The risk is back to the May 24 low at 2136.
[Der Nasdaq schloss Freitag bei 2219 - also unter den Trendlinien]
Position: None
NFP Stinks -- and Some People Still Don't Get It
Barry Ritholtz
6/2/06 12:19 PM EDT
Today's nonfarm payrolls number stunk the joint up: 75,000. That's half of the monthly population growth, meaning the percentage of people working (relative to population) actually went down, if we are to believe this data.
Astonishingly, some people, including my friend Cody Willard, still do not understand the data or the context of the weak job growth within this recovery.
Rekindle the debate? Just because you close your eyes, the boogie man doesn't disappear. This job recovery has been weak.
I would welcome anyone to please cite me some data revealing this to be an above-average private sector jobs creation recovery. Hell, I'll take average.
Cody's defense of this job market includes several analytical foibles, but the best way to describe it is it "ignores reality." But a subjective error does not change the objective reality for the rest of us: By any honest measure - e.g., NY Federal Reserve or Cleveland Federal Reserve research -- this has been the worst modern jobs recovery on record.
This is not a meme I am pushing or a Bear story I fabricated. It just "is."
This doesn't mean you run out and short everything; as I wrote last December, one should Never Confuse Economic Analysis With Trading.
But comprehending the reality of the economic situation is important. It's critically important to understand the specifics of how a recovery comes about, and how it compares to prior recoveries. And to know what it means as the massive government stimulus that goosed the economy begins to fade. What happens when the Pig is finally thought the Python?
I expect that as we begin to slow, there ain't a whole lot of fat to get sliced. As unemployment starts ticking up, it will not be pretty. It suggests the next recession will be more severe than the last one.
Yes, Virginia, there is inflation. And yes, Cody, this has been the worst Jobs recovery since WWII. [2. Weltkrieg]
Position: Long Cody
That Rocking Economy From the Past
Cody Willard
6/2/06 12:42 PM EDT
Barry, nice job ignoring the points that you've been trying to make using your repeated bearish rants about how this job growth cycle wasn't up to a handful of other job growth cycles that you've measured using the incredibly silly and faulty data provided to you by a bunch of politically motivated bureaucrats.
Nobody's arguing that the results of the way you've bothered to measure job growth show that this cycle pales in comparison to a few recent ones in the past 50 years. And that's relevant to my investing decisions how?
The part that I've always taken issue with and that I continue to take issue with has nothing to do with your use of government data. It's all about your economic conclusions based on that data. Such as, in the post I linked to earlier this morning, when you wrote in April of 2005, "And as I have lamented over and over again on this site, an economy unable to create new jobs at a robust pace -- like this one has failed to -- is not a healthy economy."
It was indeed a healthy economy.
Do I think that today's economy is as healthy as it was last year when we debated its health? No. That's partly why I remain mostly in cash.
Do I think that today's job growth number means that this economy is doomed? No. That's partly why I will be looking to start buying stocks again soon.
The job growth during the last few years was plenty to keep this economy strong and to keep the earnings growth of my favorite stocks going strong. That is what matters, not whether you've found a way of determining that payrolls as measured by the government are growing in the same way they happened to when Elvis or when the Beatles or when Pearl Jam reigned.
Position: None
Now We Get to the Heart of the Matter
Barry Ritholtz
6/2/06 1:19 PM EDT
Ah, Cody, now we get to the heart of our economic differences.
In my analysis, this has been an extremely aberrational, stimulus-driven economy. It's relied on government handouts -- big tax cuts, deficit spending, two wars, ultra low rates -- as opposed to the normal organic growth we have seen under normal circumstances.
You think "It's rocking."
My frame of reference is 1973 [siehe Posting 2 in diesem Thread] (I disagree with those who think the 1929 comparison is more apt). This framework is part of the reason I expect there to be major economic dislocations in the future.
You claim it is "indeed a healthy economy."
The government stimulus during the past few years was sufficient to keep the economy moving forward. Earnings growth has been driven in large part by government spending, by overseas demand, by corporate cost-cutting, improving efficiencies and productivity gains.
The consumer has exchanged 3 trillion dollars worth of home equity [Hypotheken] for assorted "stuff." Their savings rate is negative, and their real income has lost ground.
This is what you describe as a "strong economy."
As to equities, many studies have shown that the ideal entry for stocks is hardly when earnings growth is terrific, but softening. Rather, it's when year-over-year S&P 500 earnings gains are poor, but improving.
Time will tell which of us is correct. I think we will know by January for sure who's right. Dinner's on the loser...
Position: ~
Re: The Heart of the Matter
Cody Willard
6/2/06 1:37 PM EDT
Hey, Barry, don't put words in my mouth there, buddy. I said it was a rocking economy last year when you said it wasn't. That's past tense.
Aberrational? Oh, as if there's some standard of normalcy for the economy? LOL. What I wrote is that you have been dead wrong in lamenting the health of this economy for the last few years. Past tense, see? Yes, I am now worried that this economy is no longer healthy. Present tense, see?
Fun stuff, man. Love the debate.
Position: None.
Potato, Po-tah-toe
Barry Ritholtz
6/2/06 2:21 PM EDT
So we both are now saying the economy is decelerating and heading for trouble?
It appears our differences are what got us here: I say it's been a long time coming, 'cause she never was that healthy to begin with; you say the economy was rocking but is now a cause for concern.
So where do we really differ? I still adhere to the belief of understanding the actual health of the economy beneath the government data. Is this a healthy expansion? Where is the growth? What sectors are doing well and why?
I believe the key to understanding what could happen in the future is how we got to where we are now. Again, my analytical read is because of the government-stimulus-driven strength, any subsequent weakness may potentially be severe. I tend to agree with Northern Trust's Paul Kasriel, who has said, this is an "accident prone economy."
What say ye?
Position: ~
Economic Interpretation in the Eye of the Beholder
Steven Bulwa
6/2/06 2:29 PM EDT
I am enjoying the debate between Cody and Barry. What becomes clear is that events can be interpreted very differently by different people.
The issue for me is just because the economy posted strong numbers over the last few years does that actually mean the economy was strong? I would argue as I believe Barry would is that the answer is no. You have to look at the origin of the strength to provide the proper context.
The economy's recent strength was created by cheap borrowing and paper gains in homes stimulating more borrowing. The demand was not organically derived from improved business conditions or job creation or the greater wealth of the population, the stimulus was applied by offering cheap money and what was borrowed is due back some day. This will be proven over the longer term.
Short-term actions in markets or economies are proof of nothing, just imbalances in supply and demand. If a stock is going higher short term because a big fund is a buyer but in 12 months is down 50%, was the analyst that was negative about that company's prospects during the short period of the stock's ascent wrong? Not in my books.
...
Potatoes ... or Carbs?
Cody Willard
6/2/06 2:32 PM EDT
Barry, that's two posts in a row that you've put words in my mouth. Sigh.
Look, I am concerned about the health of this economy for the first time in a long time. That's far different from being in your camp of (Still, I might add) saying that we're headed for trouble.
Some might say that it made good sense to cash in a lot of chips and allow for these markets and economy to chill out for a little while back when every index in the world was up huge in the last few years and up huge in the last few months.
Position: None
...
Real Estate Keys the Economy
Richard Suttmeier
6/2/06 2:45 PM EDT
I have read an estimate that 25% to 50% of the job creation across America over the past three years can be attributed to the real estate market. A slowdown in housing can lead to layoffs, as real estate agents, title searchers and mortgage bankers lose their jobs.
The homebuilders have been flagging this risk.
Position: None
...
We Do Disagree!
Barry Ritholtz
6/2/06 3:33 PM EDT
I don't want to put words in your mouth, Cody. I am merely inquiring as to where we have key disagreement. I think our discussion today has clarified where we are at odds.
On a related note (and answering Richard Suttmeier's question), a study done by Asha Banglore (also of Northern Trust) back in April of 2005 found 42% of all new private sector jobs were real-estate related.
This has been fun, Cody, and I am looking forward to checking out your new digs next week. Enjoy the weekend, and be sure to catch tomorrow's linkfest (now with more niacin than before!)